Special World Cup Episode: Football between Africa and the Gulf

00:00:17: Hello everybody, and welcome to the fifth episode of The Waza podcast.

00:00:22: Africa West Asia Podcast part of Carpo's West Asia and Sub Sahara African Partnerships in Flux project.

00:00:30: My name is Desiree Custerz And I'm a Project Manager with Carpo and your host for today.

00:00:36: As always In this podcast we're bridging two continents.

00:00:40: Today We are bridging them through one Of the most powerful languages on the planet Namely Football.

00:00:47: We're focusing on the World Cup, which kicked off earlier in June from the perspective of Gulf countries and the African continent.

00:00:57: And I'm joined by two people who live-and breathe football – playing it, analyzing And Dr.

00:01:11: Sebastian Sons, Senior Researcher at Carpo Specializing in Golf Politics and Sports Diplomacy.

00:01:18: Iber, Sebastian welcome!

00:01:21: Thank you Desiree.

00:01:22: it's great to be here... ...and for once on the guest side of the microphone

00:01:27: Yeah also from my site.

00:01:29: very much looking forward our exchange today.

00:01:32: It is a topic close to my heart so talking football.. ..is always a great joy & fun for me.

00:01:39: Thank you for having me.

00:01:41: Yeah, thank you both for joining.

00:01:43: I'm looking forward to our conversation and before starting with some of the serious topics i would like to ask you have you been watching The Matches?

00:01:51: what do you think so far?

00:01:54: Absolutely!I do watch the games a bit religiously... ...i grew up with the game.. ..i still play Fever Sight sometimes when my knees allow it And Like A lot Of People You Know Across Africa This Year Im Watching With with a particular kind of pride, you know.

00:02:10: Because for the first time we have ten African teams competing in the tournament and this is a generational shift because it also determines who gets to be seen on the biggest stage.

00:02:22: You know football brings billions of people together.

00:02:25: so I come to these tournaments first as a fan of african football there's a lot talent on the continent but also as someone who is looking at it through the geopolitical lens.

00:02:37: A lot of pride that I watch teams like Côte d'Ivoire, Ahmad Diallo scoring a winner and teams like Senegal representing the continent.

00:02:47: There's a lot controversy regarding South Africa participation because a lot of Africans following allegations of xenophobia in South Africa are now rallying against South Africa.

00:03:01: so it is quite interesting to watch this tournament.

00:03:04: Awesome, thank you Uber.

00:03:06: What about you Sebastian?

00:03:08: Yeah I mean...I also try to watch as many matches as i can of course here in Germany where im based most them are at night.

00:03:15: so..i had some insomnia the last couple days.

00:03:19: But yeah, I mean what Ubers said of course also is very fascinating for me.

00:03:23: There's in particular a very controversial debate about the expansion of teams.

00:03:27: these are already mentioned it and when i'm talking with people here in Germany or elsewhere they always say okay quality gets lower because teams such as Karbuverde from non-traditional football countries as they normally say are participating.

00:03:45: And I'm always arguing, look guys those teams have qualified on a sportive level.

00:03:50: They've really made it through their qualification and of course they are also part of the global football family.

00:03:56: so football does not belong to the West It never belonged to the west.

00:04:00: but in football it has become extremely obvious... ...and i think this World Cup shows that teams from the African continent.. ..but also from near Middle East ,they have really the power the privilege to play in this tournament, and therefore I think forty-eight teams is not a bad thing.

00:04:17: It's really something we should take into consideration that football is a global phenomenon And even powers emerged We did not have on our radar maybe couple of years ago.

00:04:27: Just one example When you look at the sensational draw of Cabo Verde against Spain This tells a story That if there was David Werthe Scolier constellation It's great to see how even smaller teams are performing.

00:04:41: And I think that is also a little bit the miracle of the World Cup, so therefore we in the West should be more respectful with regards to the rest of the world when it comes who owns football because its not us.

00:04:53: Uber coming back too... As we have mentioned this is the largest World Cup in Football history.

00:04:59: Forty-eight teams but three host countries and one hundred four matches.

00:05:06: As you mentioned, Sebastian this has been controversial with critics also saying that it deludes the competition and has served FIFA's commercial appetite.

00:05:16: I'm wondering Uber how does the expansion to forty eight teams on the inclusion of more global south teams fit into what we could maybe say is a geopolitical instrumentalization?

00:05:34: Well, thank you Desiree.

00:05:36: I have been reflecting on this over the last few days even before they woke up kicked off and i have written a piece called peace by other means And i'm thinking about this from december last year when FIFA decided to award its first ever Peace Prize To US president donald trump.

00:05:56: eleven weeks later The us together with israel opened the war in iran And at the time of speaking, there has been some memorandum understanding that war should now come to an end.

00:06:10: But Iran as you know is qualified for World Cup as well and the war went on.

00:06:17: so... You have a mixture of peace price in one hand then war with participants by host nation within single world cup tournament cycle.

00:06:30: So what you see then is that the war was only halted by ceasefire days before kickoff.

00:06:37: And my argument in that piece, this isn't a coincidence but it's window into world cup has become My core argument is that diplomatic value we see in football comes entirely from its neutrality.

00:06:52: There have been lot of work and references in past whether Christmas truce or Côte d'Ivoire's national team helping to pull the country back from civil war in two thousand and five, that they game sits outside conflict.

00:07:08: And offers sort of a neutral ground where rivals can step into.

00:07:13: but what The World Cup now reveals is that their host seems to have power To bring geopolitical considerations security wartime policy directly into tournament as the World Cup.

00:07:26: So instead of pausing hostilities in the world that we've seen, We have seen The World Cup become a continuation Of those hostilities by other means and the calls are falling quite unevenly.

00:07:38: They're following on West Asia an African participants above all.

00:07:41: within the case of a Somali referee Omar Artan who was voted As the confederation of african football's best referee of the year twenty-twenty five He was turned away in Miami, despite having a valid visa and diplomatic passport on evade terror association claim with really no evidence.

00:08:04: We've seen the case of Iraq's vice captain as well being detained and questioned for about seven hours at Chicago airport.

00:08:13: Iran itself had to move its training base through Tijuana.

00:08:20: We've seen complaints as well from over five hundred fans, from Côte d'Ivoire who were denied visa outrightly.

00:08:28: And so the ways in which football is now being used to advance geopolitical interests of one of the host nations.

00:08:41: Thank you Iber and listeners can find your publication on The Carpool website, we will also include it in the show notes so its easy to find and I really recommend listeners check out.

00:08:53: Moving on to you Sebastien We've been speaking about instrumentalization of sport and sports diplomacy Could tell us a little bit how golf states have become central players in global football, especially with Qatar hosting the World Cup in two thousand twenty-two and Saudi Arabia going to host in two hundred thirty four.

00:09:16: So what strategic motivations are driving this engagement?

00:09:21: And in your view is it primarily soft power or does it also serve deeper political and security objectives?

00:09:30: Thank you.

00:09:30: Of course that's a quite complex question but definitely the role of Gulf states in global sport has intensified, has really expanded in the last couple of years.

00:09:42: But let me make a disclaimer before going more into this strategic motivations of golf states.

00:09:47: when I'm traveling to the Gulf region it is extremely obvious that football is literally everywhere and what i would like to say Is It's not only a political project That aims To improve The reputation or image Or its Not Only an instrument Of sport washing.

00:10:02: It is also an integral part of Gulf society's DNA.

00:10:05: And here I would really like to take Saudi Arabia as an example, so we have data that shows that more than seventy-five percent of the population are very much interested in football and i really feel it during all my trips through the kingdom That people are lunatic about football sometimes more then European countries.

00:10:22: Yes!

00:10:23: It was true that football is more and more politicized and commercialised.

00:10:27: You addressed this very explicitly.

00:10:30: But success in football also generates a collective belonging and the feeling of national identity and pride.

00:10:36: And this is also the case with gulf societies, so maybe you remember the sensational win of Saudi Arabia's team back in the days twenty-twenty two when they won against Argentine The later world champion in Qatar So that of course created kind of new self-consident within parts of the Saudi society.

00:10:54: I think we should take it into consideration That its not only political even in the Gulf But in principle, you're right.

00:11:00: Gulf states are heavily investing into sports.

00:11:03: we are mainly talking about Qatar the United Arab Emirates and also Saudi Arabia.

00:11:08: they all have become major players in global sports And there no serving as important investors As powerful networkers and of course hosts of big international events.

00:11:19: I already mentioned The World Cup twenty-twenty two in Qatar.

00:11:22: We will see the upcoming twenty thirty four world cup In Saudi Arabia And through their sports strategies they really want to achieve a couple of strategic goals by attracting investment, connecting more closely with the world and encouraging innovation.

00:11:38: Here there is an instrumentalised sport in particular football as driving force for their soft power projection – as you rightly said, Desiree!

00:11:47: They will present themselves as partners of benignity, brilliance & beauty.

00:11:51: What do I mean?

00:11:53: First there's Benignity And this can be understood about how a country or leader treats others.

00:12:00: If they present themselves as helpful, generous and supportive, others are more likely to trust them... ...and over time that creates goodwill loyalty and the willingness to cooperate.

00:12:11: People start to feel positively towards them and want work with them.

00:12:15: This is what Gauss states exactly wants achieve in their sport diplomacy.

00:12:19: Second, there is brilliance.

00:12:20: This means that Gauss states want to be seen as strong capable modern and effective.

00:12:26: this kind of brilliance can come from economic strength, technology or even military power.

00:12:32: But also when it comes to sports It is about success and not only when it come to success on the pitch but also When it comes for instant management skills.

00:12:41: So Qatar's organization of The World Cup twenty-twenty two Is an excellent example For this kind Of brilliance because the country has shown that it is professionally capable To run such a big event.

00:12:52: And lastly there is beauty.

00:12:54: This is About having A clear vision Or set of ideals that others can relate to.

00:12:59: And it can build trust and legitimacy because others see them as representing a cause or vision they care about, which also is very crucial for their sport strategy.

00:13:19: So therefore, to show the world that it's not only about business and making money but also attracting tourists or building up a sports ecosystem as part of beauty in sports.

00:13:33: The Gulf States are using BeautyBee.initi and Brilliance to present themselves In global sports.

00:13:41: they also want to achieve economic motivations so diversifying away from oil and investing in creating kind of a local sport.

00:13:49: Industry.

00:13:50: this helps them two position themselves as global hubs for sports technology innovation trade tourism and major international events.

00:13:59: but at the same time, briefly outlined in the beginning sport is not just about economy, it's also used to strengthen national identity and definitely consolidate political power of ruling elites.

00:14:13: And I think that general for all gulf states.

00:14:16: But you see very huge differences.

00:14:19: Qatar and the UAE have already started in the early two thousands by investing into global sports.

00:14:24: for instance, Qatar hosted The Asia Games in two thousand six.

00:14:27: Saudi Arabia is a late comment this regard but have invested heavily into sport In the last ten years And has now become kind of heavyweight in Global Sports.

00:14:38: Thank you, Sebastian and thank you also for emphasizing this societal aspect of football And that it is indeed bringing people together on the more local community level.

00:14:49: With that I would like to move a little bit more To the topic of African golf sport relations and staying with you Sebastien We have also seen that Gulf States For awhile now Have been emerging as global players On football but i'm wondering how does this play out?

00:15:07: on the African continent?

00:15:09: I mean, as Gulf states have become very attractive markets for global football in particular and national leagues are now also promoting themselves as places to be.

00:15:21: For international stars from Europe but of course also from Africa.

00:15:25: those leaks have become much more prominent Also for african players.

00:15:28: take the Saudi pro league As an example.

00:15:30: we see a couple of very very prominent africans playing there.

00:15:34: just mentioned Senegal, Sadio Mane or Morocco's goalkeeper Yasin Bounu to just mention two of them.

00:15:41: So I think that is an excellent opportunity also for African players to really boost their careers Also players who are not as prominent As the stars i already mentioned.

00:15:51: But I think there is also more than that and it goes a little bit into the whole topic of football development.

00:15:57: And here, the Gulf States are very much investing in sport for development programs as they focus not only on money infrastructure but also emphasizing human development like youth employment skills training women's empowerment education through sports.

00:16:16: And here this interconnectedness between African countries and the Gulf States are becoming more visible.

00:16:24: Let me mention Qatar as a leading example, here.

00:16:27: Qatar has built a sport and humanitarian approach through programs like Football Dreams or Generation Amazing which identify young talent across Africa and offer selected players training in scholarship opportunities inside Qatar.

00:16:41: And many of these initiatives began long before the twenty-twenty two World Cup and were supported, for instance by The Espaya Academy.

00:16:49: Maybe you've heard about it?

00:16:50: The Espya academy was already founded in two thousand four and has become a state-of-the art center of excellence focusing on developing young sports talent over time.

00:16:59: It is built an international scouting network across Africa to identify promising athletes not only in football but other disciplines as well And the academy is also used as a training base by top international football clubs, such as Bayern Munich.

00:17:14: This showcases how comprehensive the approach of Qatar is to really combine their sport ambition with human development through for instance football development.

00:17:25: Another very interesting example is the Education Above All Foundation which uses sports-based programs to support children who are out of school and works in countries such as South Africa, Cote d'Ivoire or Nigeria.

00:17:38: And therefore football development has become an important tool of gulf development policy and also foreign policy as it combines sport investment and development cooperation with each other.

00:17:59: That's very interesting.

00:18:00: Uber, I would love to hear your opinion on this topic.

00:18:03: How do you see the growing partnership between Gulf and Africa in sports including On The Community level?

00:18:11: Do you feel that African actors retain agency In these relationships?

00:18:17: There is clearly real opportunity when you look at the enormous economics that are involved.

00:18:22: The continent's sports market itself, it already worth around twelve billion dollars and this projected to pass twenty-billion by twenty thirty five right?

00:18:32: And football is a dominant contributor today's economics... ...and these not just abstract numbers.

00:18:37: Desiree if we looked in recent African Cup of Nations competitions they have delivered real money to their host nations For Côte d'Ivoire in twenty-twenty three, roughly a hundred and five million dollars.

00:18:49: Morocco just last year close to one hundred ninety million on all of these through tourism hospitality infrastructure sponsorship deals as well.

00:19:00: so the African football ecosystems are while there's opportunity they're also chronically under invested.

00:19:07: federations are underfunded.

00:19:10: The infrastructure remains thin.

00:19:12: talent is developed yes but That talent then is immediately exported to Europe, to the Gulf and elsewhere more than it is in Africa.

00:19:22: So partners willing to put serious money into infrastructure in stadiums, academies that Boston was talking about can actually change their lives on careers of young talents across the continent.

00:19:35: I don't want to be romantic by turning this down Gulf money is increasingly going beyond elite leagues into exactly that kind of developmental space.

00:19:45: Youth employment, we're seeing that move in to skills training.

00:19:48: We are seeing a bit of that into women's empowerment.

00:19:51: But there is a real risk that African states then end up as venues for other people's soft power rather than agents or authors of their own.

00:20:02: The study I did with Sebastian sort-of put concrete faces on the risks.

00:20:06: in Ghana In Nigeria and Cameroon We heard again and again about young players being approached by unlicensed agents, you know?

00:20:16: Of course dangling the pathway to Europe or the Gulf.

00:20:19: Families are paying significant sums of money up front.

00:20:23: that's a very high failure rate.

00:20:25: Some players are left stranded in vulnerable or irregular situations, and that is the extractive dynamic.

00:20:33: In this microcosm we're seeing talent increasingly data analytics.

00:20:38: they flowing out branding an image.

00:20:41: They're flowing into a continent but were not seen enough being reinvested into local systems.

00:20:48: So you see the same imbalance in where money lands, golf engagement is heavily concentrated on professional leagues and mega events but grassroots football the case of women's participation and safeguarding are getting comparatively less.

00:21:05: The Saudi pro league, for instance does offer African stars.

00:21:10: Sebastien talked about this salary on a clear contract that domestic league in Cameroon or Kenya can simply not match And it is rational you know supports an entire family Or sometimes village can fund their business back at home.

00:21:27: but aggregate enough of those individual decisions and you accelerate a sort of commercialization of African football without really, really strengthening its foundations.

00:21:38: So the task there's way for me is for African football to align with partners who offer sustainable development on terms african institutions themselves can actually set And to insist that benefits stay within the local ecosystem.

00:21:53: Academies double as education and vocational pathways that safeguarding standards travel with the investment.

00:22:00: That a partnership builds the grassroots on The Women's Game, not just the shop window right?

00:22:06: And the question I keep posing is whether African states now are being treated as partners or as targets and venues.

00:22:12: so that question applies even within the context of World Cup.

00:22:17: Thank you, Iber.

00:22:17: And the study you refer to just now is a policy paper that you and Sebastian wrote together with the title Beyond The Pitch which looks at the German model of sports for... development.

00:22:30: And just for the listener, this concept of sport for development argues that sport is not just a driver-for-physical activity but also relevant for human development as it promotes skills training career orientation and mental health among other things.

00:22:48: an uber has someone deeply involved in this ecosystem As you just described.

00:22:54: Why Is The German Model For Sport For Development?

00:22:58: Maybe failing to gain the visibility that for example, The English Premier League or the Gulf States influence enjoy?

00:23:06: This is interesting.

00:23:07: It's a paradox this way we try to capture in the phrase of recognition but frustration at the same time on one side when you look at the recognition...the track record is substantial and I want to put some numbers on it because they are genuinely impressive.

00:23:22: through GIZ led Sports for Development in Africa programming.

00:23:28: We've seen German engagement reach over one point four million young people, more than forty thousand of them taking part in regular training around Forty percent Of them girls and young women which is quite impressive.

00:23:42: So the programing has trained about two thousand three hundred coaches and multipliers build or renovated modern A hundred and eighty facilities across twelve African countries.

00:23:54: And has worked with over a hundred and twenty seven partner organizations, but the figure that I'd really want to underline is this that several African countries from Kenya Namibia Ethiopia Tanzania Senegal Côte d'Ivoire Antogo actually embedded sports for development into their national education policies or curriculum frameworks.

00:24:16: And that's not a tournament that comes and goes, That institutional change really outlives the funding cycle.

00:24:24: The safeguarding work is I would say the flagship.

00:24:28: if you look at the Kenya Academy of Sports Safeguarding Framework developed with German support it goes in to tackling harassment abuse traffic in and aligns national structures with the convention on the rights of a child, for instance.

00:24:42: So the brand football made in Germany still carries a real reputation for technical competence or reliability and sort-of values based approach that treats partners as people not just market but frustration.

00:24:57: part then comes which is this good work?

00:25:01: close to being invisible and visibility's power and the Spanish La Liga dominate their screens across countries in Africa.

00:25:12: Like, In Kenya la liga runs a Nairobi office with localized African tailored content and player awards while German presence has actually weakened over time.

00:25:23: In the paper, we argue that The Bundesliga is repeatedly described as a late-comer to this scene.

00:25:29: And here's a timing problem that worries me most – that GIZ concluded its last federally funded stand alone spot for development project in March of this year and leaves essentially one.

00:25:41: running by media.

00:25:42: So Germany risks losing hard-won relationships at exactly the moment that the field is most contested when the Gulf states, China and Turkey are all expanding.

00:25:54: you know so part of the problem is a question of fragmentation.

00:25:58: non African actors are competing with each other for funding or visibility rather than pulling together.

00:26:06: Sports, in my view is still treated as part of the German system and Sebastian knows this better.

00:26:12: It's nice to have visits with former football stars that generate good PR but rarely do they sustain political backing.

00:26:22: So one our interviewees called it fanboyism.

00:26:26: There are photo opportunities But there isn't a strategy.

00:26:30: As long as football sits culture box rather than the strategy box.

00:26:35: I think it will keep being outcompeted by actors who treat a football pitch as a geopolitical arena, so our core argument is that Football has to be elevated from cultural afterthought To a diplomatic tool.

00:26:50: Germany's comparative advantage here is quite real.

00:26:53: It's substantive but only if its stops running short projects and commits to long-term locally old engagement.

00:27:01: Thank you, Iber.

00:27:02: Sebastian is co-author of the paper.

00:27:05: would you like to add something?

00:27:08: You really outlined all the critical issues related to Germany's sport for development approach towards Africa and i mean germany is here just an example in outstanding example.

00:27:18: it's not the exception of the rule when it comes to fragmentation.

00:27:23: I would argue that in particular for a country such as Germany, which is really also competing on the global scale with regards to its leverage and agency.

00:27:32: Its credibility of sports should be used in more strategic way... ...as it's driver for Germany image in this world.

00:27:42: so still….

00:27:43: although the German national team did not perform very well in the last two World Cups, but still it is recognized as a success story.

00:27:50: And of course also Germany's development cooperation is a success-story and by linking sport & development together, Germany can really make difference –not only on the African continent–but also other parts of the world.

00:28:04: So here I really think that a strategic approach would help for the sake when it comes to creating new partnership models with local stakeholders.

00:28:17: And here, I think what is very important is that external players should not come to African markets and societies to impose something on them... ...and teach them how for instance implement the best football development projects.

00:28:32: It needs to be a coordinated partnership approach in which of course also local ownership plays out.

00:28:40: This is crucial, this what we have heard from so many interlocutors throughout our research and I find quite interesting that some of the German professional football clubs are more engaging on the African continent not only for professional reasons but also in terms of development.

00:29:00: What you see here in South Africa is clubs like Aminia Biedefeld, Mainz Zero Five, RB Leipzig are treating South Africa as an important region not only for talent recruitment but also for training programs, football development and partnership with local clubs.

00:29:18: And I see a number of interesting German run initiatives here again in south africa.

00:29:25: who is going into townships aiming to provide young talents boys & girls through football opportunities?

00:29:33: think about their career provide them with the necessary skills etc.

00:29:38: And I think there are some best practice examples but it is not really coordinated, The German Football Association currently isn't very much active on the African continent.

00:29:49: that might change as we will see next World Cup taking place in Morocco But at this moment its mainly off events which of course to short term and therefore i think there's an untapped potential for German-African cooperation in sport for development.

00:30:06: And there are very, very interesting partners also on the African side.

00:30:09: take for instance The Africa Football Development Network which connects around fifty grassroots organizations.

00:30:16: this already show how corporation and knowledge sharing can work in practice.

00:30:20: therefore I think what we need is a change of mindset among some german actors who needs to move away from all assumptions or one sided approaches.

00:30:29: sometimes they're still this kind of postcolonial perspective perception of Africa.

00:30:35: And, that's absolutely outdated and to see really a partnership That can emerge from which both sides benefit.

00:30:43: I think it is very crucial and here sport for development in particular football development Is an interesting niche In which German and African stakeholders could work more closely together.

00:30:54: Yeah i would be curious if you'd also see any possible cooperation when it comes to Sport for Development between Germany, the Gulf and Africa.

00:31:07: Yes definitely Desiree.

00:31:08: that's a very interesting area in which gulf states germany and african partners could cooperate with.

00:31:15: i already said that gulf countries are emerging as important players in global sport policy And of course germany can no longer just react or keep its distance.

00:31:25: it needs A more active and strategic approach also by dealing with Gulf states not only in terms of sport but also when it comes to geopolitical, geoeconomic security interests.

00:31:37: So far this kind of cooperation has been relatively limited But there were some examples of co-operation.

00:31:45: Before the World Cup in Qatar Germany's GIZ Sport for Development Programme that Hubert already mentioned worked together with Qatar's Education Above All Foundation to implement a number of very small projects.

00:31:58: More recently, the Qatar Fund for Development has also shown more interest in working with Germany and countries like Kenya which could be the basis for stronger future cooperation.

00:32:08: We also see that Saudi Arabia is expanding its portfolio development initiatives in light of the upcoming World Cup.

00:32:15: twenty thirty four.

00:32:15: So here at least there are similar interests at place.

00:32:19: However we really have to take into consideration That they will remain high challenges And also risks.

00:32:24: For Germany, there is always this kind of political sensitivity by working with Gulf states in development cooperation.

00:32:31: As it often times framed as very controversial because human rights concerns and the way sport is sometimes criticized for sport washing.

00:32:42: So therefore This has to be taken into consideration And its also important to manage expectation.

00:32:47: Germany & other players in development corporation sometimes assume that gulf states will provide large amounts of funding, they'll serve as ATMs and cash cows.

00:32:59: But in reality Gulf countries do not see themselves unlimited sources of money anymore!

00:33:05: They want to be perceived strategic partners who co-design and co-implement projects And I think this is very crucial to take into consideration from all sides.

00:33:16: what are the different and sometimes diverging expectations.

00:33:19: How could you meet them?

00:33:21: On top of that, we see currently regional tensions and instability such as recent escalation involving U.S.-Israel in Iran... ...could lead Gulf governments focus more on domestic priorities and reconstruction.

00:33:34: That would reduce international spending including in sport development corporations.

00:33:39: so therefore here again financial aspect will play a role in order to identify what is possible and not.

00:33:46: And I think that's very crucial, to ask yourself –in the Gulf of Germany on the African side– What do we really want together?

00:33:53: Where are our strict red lines we cannot

00:33:56: cross?".

00:33:56: So therefore cooperation is possible but it needs to be realistic, carefully designed….

00:34:02: …and based on shared interests rather than

00:34:04: assumptions.".

00:34:06: Thank you Sebastian!

00:34:08: We're moving towards my final question which is... To both of you, if could change one thing about how FIFA or international players engage with African or Gulf football?

00:34:22: Or more generally on what sports means in the community level.

00:34:26: What would it

00:34:27: be?".

00:34:28: I'd move to a category where we put football from cultural activity and I know this might be controversial Like a diplomatic pillar in its own right.

00:34:42: because of the power that football has In bringing people together, The platform it creates for exchange ideas For exchange solutions.

00:34:59: say around neutrality, begin to play out.

00:35:01: Investing in its institutions would then be very important.

00:35:06: FIFA now does not allow for resistance.

00:35:08: it's platformed to be used to promote political messaging and that is a missed opportunity given the ways which world order is shifting again.

00:35:19: I said this can be quite controversial but i think single shift mindset change everything downstream

00:35:29: Sebastian?

00:35:30: Yeah, I also would like to end on a rather positive note.

00:35:33: Although it might sound a little bit naive.

00:35:35: we are always talking about the beauty of the game.

00:35:38: FIFA slogan is football unites the world and sometimes i really want to believe that.

00:35:43: but of course It has become extremely difficult because football Is very much commercial... ...it Has become tool for political influence For personal interests.. ..It's driven Sometimes by corruption By mismanagement By patronage networks.

00:35:58: So therefore, for me as a critical observer of football but also as a football fan at the same time it is sometimes quite hard to strike this balancing act.

00:36:06: Continuing loving the game and on the other hand seeing how difficult that has become to believe in this game.

00:36:12: But I think there's still potential And we should use contested and controversial upcoming tournaments As an opportunity.

00:36:20: Take for instance the World Cup in Saudi Arabia.

00:36:22: I can only imagine how polarized and emotional the debate here in Germany will be about this tournament, So people should just travel and see how passionate the people there are about football, as I've mentioned in the beginning.

00:36:45: And then of course talk about it and discuss it!

00:36:48: Ofcourse opposing opinions matter and that's absolutely okay... ...and i would also like to mention that Saudi Arabia is not only just Cristiano Ronaldo & all those fancy investments in football but its very down-to-earth.

00:37:02: so they're interesting initiatives.

00:37:04: on community sports The Saudi government is investing into female sports, it's developing.

00:37:10: For instance, the Riyadh Sport Boulevard which is an open door gym where ordinary people can just go and take their practices.

00:37:17: So I think this also as part of the story And it's normally much more complex than black-and-white Here.

00:37:24: The current tournament shows that the upcoming tournaments will show us our task As football lovers to really outline That yes challenges won't go away.

00:37:34: It'll become even more problematic.

00:37:35: But there are still so many stakeholders all across the globe who really want to work through football, bringing people together.

00:37:42: And I think this triangle between Europe and Africa has the potential... ...to identify a couple of very concrete initiatives in which people can just play football together discuss different topics.. ..and have more enhanced dialogue.

00:37:58: This is also the chance we have!

00:38:04: Thank you to both of you, Uber and Sebastian.

00:38:06: You have actually motivated me... ...to maybe play some football myself this afternoon And I'm very happy that you helped us make sense.. ..of the complex web of football on a global scale!

00:38:20: And i would also like thank our listeners for joining this episode of The WhatsApp Podcast.

00:38:25: Don't forget to follow Carpo on LinkedIn & Instagram To stay up-to date with future episodes and we wish you a nice World Cup.