Iran and Sub‑Saharan Africa: Relations in Turbulent Times

00:00:17: Hi and welcome everybody to another episode of What's Up?

00:00:21: The Africa West Asia Podcast, part of Carpo's West Asia & Sub-Sahara African Partnerships in Flux project.

00:00:29: My name is Desiree Custors.

00:00:31: I'm a Project Manager at Carpo and one of your hosts

00:00:35: And i am Yuber Kingko Senior Researcher At Carpo & Co-host Of the What's up podcast.

00:00:41: In today's episode, we turn to a slightly less explored but nevertheless relevant dimension of Africa-West Asia relations.

00:00:49: Namely Iran's engagement with the African continent and how African actors navigate their relationships with Iran.

00:00:59: We are delighted to be joined by Ambassador Frederick Gateret Zengoga who is senior advisor on international partnerships The AU border program and regional security mechanisms at the African Union Commission.

00:01:13: Ambassador Fred has long worked as an intersection of African security, geopolitics and regional

00:01:20: cooperation.".

00:01:22: And we are also very pleased to welcome Hamid Talebian a researcher at the Giga Institute in Hamburg and affiliate with networks such as Euromesco.

00:01:32: Hamid's work focuses on Iran's foreign policy global south relations, and South-South cooperation with an emphasis on Iran-Africa relations.

00:01:44: Ambassador Fredd and Hamid it's great to have you both here today.

00:01:49: Hamid could tell us a little bit about your research of Iran-african relations?

00:01:56: And what first drew you into this topic?

00:02:03: Thanks, Desiree and Hubert for inviting me.

00:02:05: It's my pleasure to be here.

00:02:07: also My pleasure to meet you ambassador.

00:02:10: Well I positioned my research within the broader field of foreign relations in the context of the global south what has been known as South-South Relations And Within this history a look at the evolvements of Iran relationship with African countries south of the Sahara From early nineteen seventies, although I look at this period very briefly there is a good book that was published last year by Robert Steele.

00:02:36: I recommend anyone who's interested in knowing the history of Iran relationship with Sub-Saharan Africa to look up his book.

00:02:43: it has a very good empirical depth as well.

00:02:47: but then i come all the way forward.

00:02:49: and post-revolutionary Iran ,I looked at relations from the nineties and two thousand.

00:02:56: By tracing back the history of these relations, I'm interested to look at the geopolitical discourses that have been produced by their modern state in Iran.

00:03:06: But also why other actors as well... ...I looked at geopolitical discourse is that Iranian academia and intellectuals have constructed Also the clergy, the clerical institutions how they've talked and imagined so-to speak different regions And different countries on African continent.

00:03:23: And yes, I'm writing my PhD monograph on this topic.

00:03:28: Perhaps one thing very quickly about why it matters today?

00:03:31: In general the history of foreign relations focusing on South-South relations is really lacking in the broader literature especially international relations.

00:03:40: so having a better understanding and an empirically rich understanding these bilateral ties within the global south actually helps us to realize how have shown its agency in influencing the global order, and particularly today when we are talking about multi-plarity.

00:04:00: We're talking being a transition mode of the global ordered.

00:04:04: I think it's really even more important.

00:04:06: to date.

00:04:06: you know that history on the evolvement off how Google South has shaped itself throughout different decades And yeah i think is even more importance given the historical circumstances that were witnessing.

00:04:19: Thank You very much Ambassador Fred, from your experience at the African Union I'm wondering how Iran is generally perceived either as a partner or an actor on the continent.

00:04:33: What tends to shape african policy makers views of irans role in the context of Africa and West Asia relations?

00:04:43: Thank you very much Ubert.

00:04:44: first of all let me say that That's the approach that we have in terms of policy.

00:04:52: And so, uh... We've been interacting with the country around just like others.

00:04:57: As a matter-of-fact.

00:04:58: In twenty sixteen I traveled to Tehran myself and even went to Israhan very rich culture, a very beautiful country.

00:05:07: And of course we are aware of the geopolitics and all the dynamics surrounding it but overall our view is that every issue there should be addressed through dialogue not confrontation.

00:05:19: Thank you very much to both of you.

00:05:22: I would be curious to know more.

00:05:24: coming back to you Hamid Maybe about some initial results from your research You mentioned covering Iran-Africa relations from the seventies until the current time.

00:05:37: So maybe you could tell us a little bit more about Iran's engagement, including in practical terms.

00:05:43: so where do we see that Iran is most active on the continent and may be also?

00:05:49: through which instruments such as diplomacy trade security or even religious cooperation?

00:05:57: I would say actually it's a mix of all these elements that you mentioned.

00:06:01: It really depends about which actors we're talking about, are they inside the state apparatus in Iran or outside?

00:06:10: What is their relationship between?

00:06:11: this actor?

00:06:12: do have any sort rivalry with each other?

00:06:15: How is their perspective about the economy, the politics and African continent?

00:06:19: And also which historical period you're looking at.

00:06:22: As I mentioned Iran was probably one of the oldest middle powers in West Asia that has become engaged with Africa in the first.

00:06:30: In the nineteen seventies.

00:06:31: when we look at documents We realized like early nineties there are different ministries from under the former monarchy that go to Mali, go to South Africa from Ministry of Economy, from Minister of Commerce.

00:06:45: From many different wings of the states... ...to actually gather some knowledge about African demography,... ...about African politics, about economic needs and development needs.

00:06:55: Because before the nineteen seventies, it's basically like a blank caveat.

00:06:59: You know?

00:07:00: The Iranian state apparatus don't that much about what is going on and this critique has often been raised to show.

00:07:08: everybody looks at Africa as one single country while it has many differences, and there are many different characteristics that we can assign to every one of these countries in the African continent.

00:07:18: But this was the perspective of the modern state in Iran as well.

00:07:22: It took perhaps two decades of knowledge production until Different wings of the states actually realized what they're dealing with.

00:07:30: And from the seventies when we move forward To the eighties and nineties As we come forward We see That's a means through which The States have engaged With different african countries diversified as well, you know.

00:07:42: if in nineteen seventies it was only Politically driven or economically for example like the Shah had really close relationship with the upper tight state and South Africa Between ninety to ninety five percent of oil would be supplied by Iran at a time.

00:07:57: Then in post-ninety seventy nine this changed Of course because relationships were cut down.

00:08:03: The south african embassy Was given two swaps instead?

00:08:07: For example.

00:08:08: But then, for example the religious cultural element in the nineteen seventies is missing.

00:08:12: You don't see that element playing in their relationship or how Iran envisioned it could forge bilateral relations with Kenya and Tandania where they evolved in the nineties.

00:08:26: So yeah, I would say overall it's a mix of different elements that have formed Iranian strategy towards sub-Saharan Africa.

00:08:34: Security cooperation had played the big role in mid two thousand especially when Iran was becoming more isolated.

00:08:40: international sanctions were being imposed and rivalry and confrontation between Iran and Israel was heating up.

00:08:48: at a time And this period we see For example, the security cooperation between military establishment in Iran and defense ministry in Sudan under Omar al-Pashir goes up.

00:09:00: Iran becomes one of top suppliers for weapons to Sudan at a time between two thousand five to two thousand thirteen because this would be something that we will probably talk about as well that the security complex broadly in Eastern Africa, is really intertwined and tied to the security architecture of West Asia as well.

00:09:21: So Iran also found itself getting engaged with the politics of the Horn of Africa because of the rivalries that it had with other regional rivals like Saudi Arabia on Israel and West Asia.

00:09:34: thank you I would like to pause.

00:09:36: Just one follow-up question to you, Hamid.

00:09:39: Before going back to Ambassador Fred which is that many discussions today focus on the growing role of Gulf actors in Africa and I'm wondering In your view how Iran's approach differs from that of Gulf states?

00:09:56: One thing we have to take note off Is that Iran engagement by almost all indicators in terms of economic relationships is really lagging behind other Gulf states in terms of scale and intensity of their relationships.

00:10:12: For example, infrastructure investment the way that UAE especially recent years have become engaged with infrastructural projects building up maritime for example infrastructure like this big-scale type project.

00:10:26: it has never been a predominant approach to the Iranian state at least And there are many reasons for that.

00:10:33: There is limited state capacity, there's the effect of international sanctions on Iranian economy but also in banking and when they have been many examples that Iran has not being able to deliver from the promises.

00:10:47: And part of it is, of course, sanctions and the limitations on banking but also factional politics inside Iran as well.

00:10:55: Normally reformist-aligned governments are not that much keen on exploring different possibilities that exist in different African countries while for example when you look at the period from five to two thousand thirteen.

00:11:08: It was a peak of their relationships.

00:11:09: The trade volume in twenty eight was something close to, I don't recall the exact number but close to billion.

00:11:17: That number never happened again until two thousand twenty-two thousand twenty one which there was another government from the traditional right side of political spectrum in Iran.

00:11:26: so foreign policy interest follows also factional politics inside Iran as well.

00:11:32: So in terms of intensity, I would say Yvonne lags behind probably all the other regional rivals.

00:11:38: Turkey even but also when we look at educational establishment and cultural exchanges that Yvon have had with Tanzania or South Africa, if I recall correctly now.

00:11:52: It's really based on low-scale kind of low cost methods of doing these cultural exchanges by translating a lot of work.

00:11:59: for example there is like a Swahili department in many of this cultural institutions.

00:12:04: their primary job is to translate books from theology of Shizam ,from Persian culture foundations, translate many books and then give these books to libraries and other cultural establishments that exist.

00:12:17: That they cooperate with... And it seems a bit different from the Saudi approach that you know.

00:12:22: They have this physical sustained physical presence that people build up schools in them.

00:12:27: again.

00:12:28: The material level is higher when we compare for example Saudi Arabia to Iran or Turkey With all of those out-of-schools or Gulen school previously across Africa.

00:12:40: Thank you very much, Hamid.

00:12:42: You did mention that the security in the Horn and Red Sea is very much intertwined with West Asia overall And

00:12:51: I'd

00:12:51: like to turn to Ambassador Fred just for your views from an African institutional perspective on how Iran's engagements intersect with regional security dynamics particularly in theaters across the continent such as the Horn and Red Sea region.

00:13:11: Thank you so very much, I think that first let's begin with political impact of what is happening.

00:13:17: number one we are faced to a situation where international law is no longer respected.

00:13:24: it means its free for all.

00:13:26: in eighteen eighty four we found hierarchy of colonialism but now were facing a situation when we're face with fragmentation basically geopolitical fragmentation where basically the logic of predation dominates in everything that is being done.

00:13:40: So, the erosion over international norms—the lack of focus... We have many questions going on around the continent but I don't know if you've noticed.

00:13:48: since the war started….

00:13:50: The international community has been now more on the Middle East and conflict like Sudan and others have suffered from this.

00:13:58: We've seen with the war in Ukraine that these conflicts do not only limit themselves geographically, they also come to the African continent.

00:14:05: I was reading yesterday a report between Russians forces and Mali fighting now with Ukrainian forces in Mali.

00:14:13: it is a problem And In case of the war on Iran you can imagine as Hamid was saying Iran has friends In some West African countries, people keep talking about the horn because it's where its important.

00:14:26: But there is actually serious links with some countries in West Africa or some communities in West-Africa.

00:14:32: I come to think in mind that those who sympathize what was going on around like the Shia Muslims Who have a good component of a country such as Nigeria Or even in Kodkanjlai Koopa you had a community.

00:14:48: Some even mentioned that there is a huge presence of Hezbollah, which he's also there.

00:14:52: So politically this issue not only limited to the horn or the horn.

00:14:56: we see the Gulf rivalries actually playing out their and then off course when it comes to the Red Sea.

00:15:02: That's Also A Very Important Issue.

00:15:04: so for us will look at it Politically.

00:15:06: We Look At It From A Security Perspective.

00:15:08: Is this conflict going to change alliances?

00:15:11: is it going to be an amplifier of the different conflicts that we have already on the continent.

00:15:16: So, these are some things were paying close attention too.

00:15:19: The other element I would like highlight here as issues related and this is something really concerns me.

00:15:25: It's a way this whole conflict has been framed from religion perspective As if there was confrontation between those who are of Judeo-Cushion faith versus the Muslim ummah, nativen shayam or Sunni Muslims.

00:15:43: And that I think is an extremely dangerous one and we need to be very careful not... To make sure those voices which are affirming it in these terms aren't being amplified because they will add another layer into many conflicts than what you have.

00:15:55: The other element now turned a little bit towards economics.

00:15:58: We've all seen the price of oil products as sky pockets And Africa is not immune.

00:16:02: In fact, some of our countries have already increased the prices at the pump and we all already know that even in our reserves were going to be faced with a difficult time.

00:16:11: but it's also creating an opportunity interestingly enough for countries that produces oil to build refineries.

00:16:18: We've seen Dangote with his refinerys on how he was expanding on African continent.

00:16:23: That something important.

00:16:26: Of course, like I said we also have a crisis of food security which is concerning to us because most of our farmers you know there's a fertilizer shortages and then there's stock depletion and inflation linked to the unrest.

00:16:39: So that's something that we've been looking at.

00:16:42: it's also affecting our livestock exports Because uh... We used to export a lot of livestock in the Middle East countries And the interruption into Gulfbound livestock trade Particularly affecting Somalia and Kenya is also something to look into.

00:16:57: We all have debt, liquidity stress because what we call the signs of remittance interaction widening spread and constrained fiscal space.

00:17:06: so these are economic impact were faced with on the African continent.

00:17:11: So this is something that you're looking in too And I believe war in Iran will unlikely create entirely new dynamics particularly in Horn and it can intensify existing fault lines economic fragility proxy competition, political transitions and unresolved conflicts.

00:17:28: Our region is not at risk of immediate collapse but miscalculation under

00:17:34: destruction.".

00:17:35: Thank you for your kind attention.

00:17:41: So I'm just wondering if we could reflect a little bit on that, and i would like to ask Hamid first how you see that maybe African states can engage with Iran strategically.

00:18:04: Maybe to mitigate also some of the consequences of the war?

00:18:08: How do you say that african states are able to shape rather than simply reacting to external agendas or becoming the scene of spillovers from conflicts in West Asia?

00:18:24: Well, I have two points to make about this question.

00:18:27: First off for the question on war.

00:18:29: it really depends how this war will settle.

00:18:32: you know like as i mentioned and in the Red Sea is inseparable from what's going on right now, in the straight up formals.

00:18:42: And the broader security kind of challenges that are only exacerbating in West Asia.

00:18:48: so it will really depend to what kind of deal would be between Yvonne and United States how with relationship between Yvan and Gulf states we managed after mass of war and who will be in charge of coordinating, constructing a new security structure between the golf actors themselves as well.

00:19:09: I mean that would really have an effect on how the spillover of this inter-golf stage rivalry or the rivalries they've had with Iván, Or the rivalry that Iván has had with Israel for example.

00:19:24: We know that the spillover effect on Iván is real confrontation in Sudan In Kenya and general in the Red Sea And it will all depend where we are heading at.

00:19:35: With current war going The question of African agency, I'm not really in a good position to answer that.

00:19:41: What i can tell is that...I think the many african states have actually engaged with Iran quite strategically you know and the example of Sudan..i can mention again when we know that in two thousand fifteen it was quite a shock to the Iranian government ,i can imagine or to observers of Iran-Africa politics that Omar Abbasis suddenly cut down all the relationships, all decade long somehow relationship with Iran.

00:20:09: Embassy was closed Iranian cultural centers were evacuated in only one month and from my perspective Iran was investing very strategically in Sudan you know in its broader confrontation at a time indirect confrontations it had with Israel.

00:20:26: So there are different explanations about why Sudan decided to cut down the relationship that it had with Iran.

00:20:35: But an explanation, a broad consensus is that Bashir himself was leveraging the relationships that Sudan has with Iran towards the United States and later on Saudi Arabia and other regional rivals that Iran had at the time, you know?

00:20:52: That after two thousand fifteen.

00:20:54: Saudi Arabia became like a major player in Sudan at the expense of Iran.

00:20:58: so my point is that by just having relationship with Iran given the entire Western Stance of the Iranian state in international forums and in a global order basically The lack of relationships between Iran and the United States it's itself point of leverage that Many African states from South Africa to Sudan have maneuvered quite well this space And I think that can be the leverage.

00:21:23: That many african states can use From now on as though in what we will see in future.

00:21:31: Thanks so much Hamid, i do not know many people who can speak authoritatively on this question of African agency, perhaps than your ambassador Fred.

00:21:42: So it will be interesting to hear what you think about the question of an African agency because there is often a tendency to portray African states mainly as though they are being affected by geopolitics across the world including in the Middle East.

00:21:59: just based on your observation, you experience working for quite some time at the African Union.

00:22:05: Where do you see African governments and regional institutions retaining meaningful room from maneuver?

00:22:11: Whether it's diplomatically economically or multilaterally when engaging actors like Iran?

00:22:18: Thank you very much.

00:22:18: so I think

00:22:19: that first and foremost recently President William Ruto of Kenya called for an African foreign policy And the idea here is that we must have agency and not only to look at Christ as a risk but also opportunities.

00:22:36: I think earlier on, I mentioned if you looked what's happening with refineries of dango taste spreading across Africa and is planning out all the way into East Africa.

00:22:46: If you look at Algeria, under deals that have been making regarding gas with European countries there are actually some African countries which are turning this crisis in to an opportunity.

00:22:56: of course we want a global disruption end but can also looking it as opportunities or highlight four key things quite important for the african continent.

00:23:05: number one respect international law And international law, not because it's good to have but is because international law protects the weaker countries.

00:23:14: Number two more than ever we've realized that we need economic integration Not only as a slogan.

00:23:20: of course We are content with free trade agreement But really want make its work meaning That I wanna talk about the free movement on people and goods The debate coming back again Because how can you trade if you don't have Free Movement on People and Goods?

00:23:32: It also shielding ourselves from external shocks.

00:23:36: Number three, which is very important Is to update what we call the common African defense policy?

00:23:43: We adopted it in two thousand and four But now we're thinking about updating its but with a look of not confronting anyone from external To the african continent.

00:23:52: But particularly would especially focus on protecting our critical infrastructures And our supply chains.

00:23:58: so this is something that we are looking into.

00:24:00: and number Four Which is extremely important is The fact On the continent, we are increasingly developing what they call common African positions as we go to negotiate in international forums.

00:24:13: We're not going to be aligned to the East West or whoever has come and used us say were gonna be looking forward and aligning ourselves with that.

00:24:22: What is the interest of the African country?

00:24:23: The African people but while also being global citizen of course.

00:24:27: thank you very much.

00:24:28: Thank You Ambassador Fred.

00:24:30: That's Very Clear.

00:24:31: As we move slowly to the end of the podcast, I would like to ask a question that looks ahead and ask you Hamid taking into account the broader shifts in global geopolitics at the moment.

00:24:45: How do you see Iran-Africa relations evolving over the next few years?

00:24:52: I think Iranian state does not have a grand strategy on how to engage more meaningful way with many African countries And I think, as I mentioned also it really depends on how the war will be settled.

00:25:07: Now Iran has other foreign policy priority... ...the issue of war off course and the bottom but also listing economic sanctions.

00:25:17: what would happen with future of this state of home world.

00:25:20: Domestically there are a lot challenges absorbing energy from foreign policymakers.

00:25:27: so in years ahead I cannot see a major shift, and that particularly goes back to this lack of having grand strategy.

00:25:36: There was at times there had been some signals about a grand strategy being actually devised but again there has been a lot of disruptions and obstacles in the relationship between Iran and African countries moving forward and evolving.

00:25:51: so it's hard to answer for sure.

00:25:58: And particularly, it goes back to factional politics as well.

00:26:00: Now we have a reformist government in place and I think the material kind of basis on that kind of market and the kind of foreign policy priorities they have compared to other factions That has often ruled over reigning government is different.

00:26:15: that also adds onto The question of having like a consolidated strategy with regards to Africa.

00:26:23: Thanks

00:26:24: Thank you Hamid Ambassador, you sort of preempted this conversation in your response to the question around agency.

00:26:33: And I'm wondering from the AU's standpoint what sort of priorities should African regional and continental institutions be focusing on?

00:26:42: To ensure that the ways in which they partnerships with West Asia including Iran are evolving actually contribute to stability and African strategic interests in a way that does not continue to enable new vulnerabilities.

00:26:58: Thank you very much, like I said earlier on international law economic integration we have our agenda twenty six three about key infrastructures of the african continent cooperation, actually international for us.

00:27:10: Those are the things that really drive us in terms of how we determine our partnerships?

00:27:15: We don't want to go and get ourselves intangible into things that none of our concern.

00:27:20: but we are interested in global stability which is quite normal.

00:27:23: But I will say something maybe i should have mentioned earlier on...we also aren't immune to the battle that's happening because the name of this game here today it may be between US Israel versus Iran, but the bigger picture here is global competition between an emerging China and the West as well.

00:27:43: That's something that tends to be ignored And everything revolves around like I would say four things.

00:27:49: one is maritime security because he who controls the maritime routes basically dominates globally.

00:27:56: And of course, you know China has a Silicon Belt road and so The Red Sea straight-off or moves even the Mediterranean.

00:28:02: they become extremely important in terms Of their control.

00:28:04: end for that have to control the ports.

00:28:07: the ports are Extremely important.

00:28:09: That's why you've seen everybody rushing to have deals at port of berbera Mogadishu Kismayo and elsewhere.

00:28:16: So maritime security.

00:28:18: number two it about critical minerals.

00:28:22: You've seen that everybody is rushing forward to get critical minerals, especially rare earth, tree tea, tungsten, tantalum and cobalt because it helps in the race for technology.

00:28:33: so everything you see different deals is around minerals.

00:28:38: In fact there's now a new term.

00:28:39: we are calling it blood minerals Because if you look at uh...in the Congo Now deals are being made around minerals.

00:28:46: People don't hide anymore.

00:28:47: Infact many powerful countries They already have a strategy for the minerals.

00:28:51: Then, two other issues is food security.

00:28:53: Food security's extremely important.

00:28:55: I mean people don't realize how much countries in the Middle East In particular import food on the African continent.

00:29:01: It's

00:29:03: really

00:29:03: significant.

00:29:04: so food security will be very important.

00:29:06: and then last but not least energy.

00:29:08: So these are global things that are driving us And we'll partner or engage whomever based on those issues that we're dealing with.

00:29:16: I would say something very interesting.

00:29:17: when i went to iran, visited different universities...I think it's one of the countries in the world has the most engineers in mind that have seen a very sophisticated system of education that can benefit us.

00:29:31: on the african continent they produce actually what penry as well.

00:29:35: this is something people don't talk about which are much more cheaper for some of our member states, but I've also visited Isfahan as well and the cultural connections.

00:29:45: And there's something i should have mentioned...I was surprised when I visit Tehran about a number of African embassies actually in Tehrans that many more than most people can imagine.

00:29:57: so it shows you are growing relationships But Africa is trying to diversify its relationship despite all the problems Iran has had And they've also contributed in the humanitarian sector on the African continent.

00:30:10: This is something that we don't talk about, but they have contributed a lot with the rest of their humanitarian sector and of course businesses as well.

00:30:18: this is always at the top of our engagement.

00:30:22: so I think those are things i can think about.

00:30:24: But The world changing very fast We will look into protecting interest but also being a global player, which seeks to bring about peace.

00:30:36: And like I said earlier international law really is critical.

00:30:39: so we need to stick with that and think it's important.

00:30:42: Thank

00:30:44: you very much Ambassador Fred and Hamid for your insights today.

00:30:49: It was an interesting conversation.

00:30:54: Yeah,

00:30:58: thank you really for joining us today and thanks to our listeners

00:31:03: for

00:31:04: tuning into this episode of the WhatsApp podcast.

00:31:07: If anyone would like to learn more about the WhatsApp project in our research please visit the Carpo website And follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram.