African Agency in Gulf - Africa Relations: South Africa & Ethiopia

00:00:15: Welcome everybody to the second episode of What's Up?

00:00:19: The Africa West Asia podcast, which is linked to Carpo's WhatsApp project.

00:00:25: That stands for West Asia and Sub-Saharan African Partnerships in Flux.

00:00:31: For our new listeners my name is Desiree Custerz Project Manager with Carpo And one your two hosts.

00:00:39: I am Yuber Kingko Senior Researcher at Carpo and one of the co-hosts of The WhatsApp

00:00:45: Podcast.

00:00:47: While in last episode we had a look at concept agency at more theoretical level, today's episode will focus on Agency In African Gulf Relations On A More Concrete Level By Looking At Two Examples Of South Africa And Ethiopia.

00:01:06: Now I would like to welcome out two guests for Today.

00:01:09: First, we have with us Dr.

00:01:11: Bob Wercasa who is a geopolitics scholar focused on Africa's engagement with global powers.

00:01:20: He is director of the African Center for the Study of The United States at the University of Witwatersran South Africa and coordinator of the african agency towards Global Powers Project.

00:01:34: he Is also a member of the West Asian and South Saharan African Partnerships in Flux Research Group.

00:01:41: Second, we have with us Dr.

00:01:44: Mari Aweke lead researcher on Middle East research affairs director general at The Institute for Foreign Affairs within Ethiopia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs based out of Addis Ababa Ethiopia.

00:01:59: his research interests include political violence peace and conflicts international security, denuclearization and diplomacy.

00:02:10: Yes welcome to you both Dr Amareh and Dr Bob.

00:02:14: Both of you have been part of the WASAP The West Asia and Sub Sahara African Partnerships in Flux Project and have participated in a number of our workshops and conferences.

00:02:27: I would like to ask you both maybe, briefly introduce your interest in relationships between these two sub-regions... ...and how or why it is important for us to look at this relationship right now in time.

00:02:44: Maybe i will start with you Dr Bob then hand over the floor to Dr Amare.

00:02:51: Thanks

00:02:52: Hubert

00:02:52: and Desiree.

00:02:54: My interest in these relations, you know, South Africa and the Gulf is nearly obvious.

00:03:04: The fact that at very moment we are witnessing Israeli-U.S.-Iran War which has had a knock on effect globally.

00:03:16: but from specific African perspective we are seeing a great impact on livelihoods as hydrocarbons and gas kind of prices skyrocket.

00:03:29: And this has an impact both at the livelihood level in households, but also in terms of very nascent new industrial capacity businesses agriculture and so forth.

00:03:45: And of course, this is just the latest development.

00:03:48: The Gulf region has been quite volatile and the effects on that have spilled over onto the continent specifically in the Horn of Africa region In terms of things such as counterterrorism and related pieces security matters but even down here in South Africa issues such as the violence in Palestine and so forth.

00:04:17: So clearly there is no way one can avoid Gulf

00:04:21: states

00:04:22: infusion, and insertion an intersection into Africa from multiple perspectives.

00:04:30: Thank you very much Bob.

00:04:31: thank You for pointing out The interrelatedness between the two regions And mentioning that it's actually Very unavoidable to look at how partnerships and relationships between the two regions develop.

00:04:47: With that, I would like to also invite Dr.

00:04:49: Amare to share his point of view please?

00:04:53: Okay thank you so much Hubert Desir and Professor Beau Bassois.

00:05:00: And then, nice to meet you virtually.

00:05:02: Yes we of course had participated in a few of the Wazap workshops so it means that were in one way or other part of the wazap group and contributing something significant for study of West Asia and Sub-Saharan African relations as well.

00:05:21: new partnerships.

00:05:23: So many things has been highlighted by Professor Bob.

00:05:27: I think I'll just simply add a few things.

00:05:30: Why we actually focus on the partnership and then relation between the Gulf in sub-Haran Africa relations, specifically at this moment in time?

00:05:40: I would like to just raise three most important thing so that first one is... This region runs up only time especially before colonialism used to have a kind of very traditional relations where people used to have a relation through trade and commerce, in different kinds of relations as well there are also different kind of communication through religion.

00:06:09: Therefore it's not deniable that this region has roots but this time specifically we just need on three most important things to understand the region.

00:06:27: So, the first one is that regions were found into different regional security communities such as the Gulf War Cooperation Council and then the Intergovernmental Authority for Development which is EGAD in Sub-Saharan Africa.

00:06:40: so this really true when we speak about political geography or in terms of geopolitics.

00:06:48: but actually There is shared interests and at the same time, shared identities between Gulf in Sub-Saharan Africa that are really pushing the two regions into a kind of single security complex these days.

00:07:03: For example we can have few examples like GERD issue which actually affects both regions whenever there's any kind of issues with Egypt or Ethiopia and other reparencies of the NIOC.

00:07:21: And then, another one is also the Red Sea Maritime Issues like it was earlier mentioned by Professor Boeuf where actually requires a shared or common platform to respond any sort so-called threats that are probably co-referencing in the Red sea region as well.

00:07:39: So this brings these regions into being kind security platforms.

00:07:47: And then the second one is there's a need for an economic diversification and investment opportunities as well, Gulf states especially the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia United Arab Emirates in Qatar despite the recent Middle East crisis which was highlighted earlier by Professor Bob Which all of us observed at that same time affected have revisited their foreign policy directions.

00:08:12: They are actually moving to invest in Africa in a very immense manner.

00:08:17: So this is motivated by the idea of probably liberating their oil-dependent economy because oil and natural gas are some kind of non-real oil resources, and then Gulf economy especially dependent on oil or natural gas since the nineteen seventies.

00:08:33: African states one other hand also being increasingly these days open to foreign direct investment coming from any parts of the world specifically from the very near neighbor, which is the Gulf states.

00:08:47: The third and then last one probably I have to mention it's a mutually beneficiary kind of relation or partnership that exists at this moment between the Gulf and Sub-Saharan African States.

00:08:58: Foreign partnerships didn't have any kind of both Africa due to the fact most of the African states were under hierarchical power in the donor-based partnership with the West, following probably decolonization for quite some time.

00:09:17: But this date there are some Gulf Saharan African relations however comes at a good time where Africa-West relation and partnership is in a kind of what at odds.

00:09:27: so I would say that This is an addition to the Gulf Sub-Saharan African relation Is a kind off what on interest based in them mutually beneficially kind of population.

00:09:37: So it is good to discuss about the Gulf-South side and African relations at this stage, I think.

00:09:45: This is a personal reflection that i have for your first question

00:09:49: Desai.

00:09:51: Thank you very much Amare and Bob For those insights...I would like us move back few months.

00:10:00: You organized conference towards end of last year The Conference on Africa in G-Twenty advancing solidarity, quality and sustainability you know which took place at your University Advice in Joburg.

00:10:15: An important theme that emerged this conference was that of African agency And You are very kind to invite us colleagues from Carport To present our research on agency as it plays out in Gulf Africa relations.

00:10:31: Could you please tell us a bit about this conference, what were some of the main points relating to African agency that emerged from those conversations.

00:10:43: Thank you very much Huber.

00:10:45: and basically these conferences was very much aligned with South Africa's hosting on G-Twenty Summit in Johannesburg And of course, the theme for the broad G-twenty summit was solidarity equality and sustainability.

00:11:07: So our conference which is much more civil society think tanks and academic rather than policymaking or heads of state government delegations were very much aligned with it in terms of analyzing and unpacking issues.

00:11:26: Africa in terms of the theme.

00:11:32: With specific reference to Africa-Gulf states' relations, we wanted to look at how solidarity quality and sustainability pans out.

00:11:45: And indeed Kapo was a key partner sponsoring this session on Gulf-Africa relations within the G-twenty and related discussions.

00:11:58: I think you did help us unpack issues of networks between Africa in the Middle East or the Gulf, or West Asia as one may call it—issues and issues of how Africa leverages the relations.

00:12:17: And actually, the framework that Kappa has come up with speaks to African agents in more respects than one because we see African agents as just not a state which countries such as Saudi Arabia United Arab Emirates Qatar and further afield two countries such Iran even Israel have huge play on the continent or are seen as the actors and Africa has acted upon, or the receivers of largesse or leverage from the Gulf.

00:12:55: Africa needs economic diversification so we need the Gulf states but at what cost?

00:13:04: And to whose benefit?

00:13:05: Africa is interested in securing infrastructural development.

00:13:13: countries such as UAE have invested deeply in African infrastructure, particularly seaports and increasingly getting into the domain of Ray Lewis.

00:13:23: And so far at least In a manner of speaking.

00:13:27: So Africa wants to see with construction relations that are beneficial in the infrastructure space That will constitute agency.

00:13:37: Then off course the Gulf States kind provide alternatives to Western and Chinese partnerships.

00:13:46: There are issues.

00:13:46: the big elephant in the room, in fact is energy because African countries have quite highly dependent on hydrocarbon exports or imports for that matter from the Gulf states.

00:14:00: there are issues to do with labor migration, lots of Africans with a booming young population are looking for jobs.

00:14:09: And half the time they had ending up in the Middle East where there issues with labor rights and how they're treated on related matters.

00:14:19: so that conference in a nutshell was to look at how Africa the Gulf can be solidarity across all these issues as global South partners.

00:14:29: it was too.

00:14:29: look at equality.

00:14:31: Can we indeed talk of equality when Gulf states have higher GDPs, high purchasing power parity and higher economic leverage over the African continent?

00:14:44: I think one issue that I didn't quite mention is that Gulf States for their food security are increasingly buying or investing into huge tracts on African farmland.

00:14:56: in Kenya, in South Sudan and Malawi.

00:14:59: And other places.

00:15:01: but what does that then mean for Africa's own food security?

00:15:05: So those are some of the issues that were discussed and I'm glad that Desiree was there to speak about this.

00:15:12: Hubert we missed you but Sebastian Sons was there, Yann-Hanrat was there and you helped us unpacked that.

00:15:19: In fact We have a report coming up with that effect.

00:15:22: Thank You

00:15:23: Thank you very much Dr.

00:15:25: Bob, we are very much looking forward to that report and thank also for mentioning the kind of theory on agency that the Carpool Wazzap team has developed in our previous episode.

00:15:39: so listeners who are curious can refer back.

00:15:43: And with that, I would like to invite Dr.

00:15:45: Amaretto also share some of your perspectives when it comes how the African continent but also individual African countries can exercise their agency vis-à-vis Gulf countries.

00:16:01: that as Bob has mentioned may have a kind of asymmetry in power relations.

00:16:06: So how do you see that?

00:16:08: Either, In the context of multilateral relations You already mentioned EGOT when it comes to security but also When It Comes To bilateral Relations Between State Maybe in The Case Of Ethiopia.

00:16:23: Thank You so much Desire.

00:16:25: to add up a few points what the professor earlier had mentioned.

00:16:30: In our part, recognizing the importance and significance of agency in partnership between Gulf and Sub-Saharan African relations.

00:16:39: my institute with the Institute for Foreign Affairs which is affiliated to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia has organized three most important conferences for the last three years, and then the fourth one is upcoming.

00:16:55: So the conference actually focuses on wait-see security We often use to call it a wait-sea and then Gulf of Aden Conference or dialogue.

00:17:06: so The first conference was focused on the need for cooperation at the time of geopolitical entanglement between the gulfs in the sub Saharan African states focusing on the Red Sea security dynamics, specifically following threats that was launched by the Houthi ravers against international shippers who are passing through the above-element demonstrate in the Red sea area.

00:17:35: And then next conference was on the need for regional cooperation at a time of geopolitical shift.

00:17:40: and third one is navigating our own economic and security cooperation.

00:17:46: And then the next one, The upcoming conference that I mentioned earlier was is on maritime security given the minute crisis.

00:17:55: That actually starts us from Iran or probably Tehran Or Israel and some members of the Gulf states would have an absolute devastating effect On the whole of African state.

00:18:08: So the idea is whenever this Probably as we've said earlier two regions are coming to a kind of what the single security complex has come together and then forge some kind of economic and security cooperation or partnerships, either in the form of multilateral alliances or bilateral relations.

00:18:32: And other times there might be also many other kinds of partnership right?

00:18:37: So most important thing is agency or actors with their states or different non-governmental organizations that have the ability to actually resolve whatever type of problems.

00:18:51: That is becoming a bottleneck between the Gulf and then sub Saharan African relation could be discussed in such kind of.

00:18:58: what are platforms, so therefore taking the initiative to have a kind of original concept study program like the risk conference as I said earlier would have very significant input to agencies to actually push the initiative that they've been taking in the Horn of Africa, the race region and at same time the Gulf.

00:19:22: Like for example Professor Iliad mentioned about UAE's contribution into port development infrastructure connectivity projects And then many things The participation from other states in providing Whatever type of support for African states.

00:19:41: and then Africa can also cause an investment opportunity For the Gulf States.

00:19:48: So, The initiative has to be from both And at the same time this base.

00:19:54: Both Africa and the Gulf are becoming equal partners in decision-making In the establishment of what a relation which is on interest based religion like as we have stated earlier unlike the one that we used to know between Africa and then the West.

00:20:09: Therefore, both the Gulf and Sub-Saharan African states have this shared interest as I've said earlier... ...and a shared identity in the RISCA region which requires collective efforts….

00:20:19: …to overcome threats and growing vulnerabilities of the region.

00:20:23: So these might include common security and economic platforms like what I've mentioned before that can be used to address each state's ambitions and aspirations with the larger new class, which is the Gulf Sub-Saharan African religion.

00:20:37: So currently Ethiopia has significant national priorities when I have to discuss about my country's contribution as well As a biggest economy in the Horn of Africa To get an access to the sea.

00:20:48: uh hence um i could say The growing african dove intersecting agency Uh might have the potential to eventually resolve its long oppressed sea access ports in the long run, in that region.

00:21:02: For instance gulf sparse fishing port development and infrastructure developments as well other establishments of connectivity and development initiatives has a potential to resolve the sea access issues is regional tensions we used to know for along being period off time.

00:21:20: so thank you.

00:21:22: Thank You very much Dr Omare and your compliments very nicely, what Dr.

00:21:27: Bob as well introduced in his response.

00:21:31: and now we are moving to the closing segment.

00:21:33: And

00:21:35: just

00:21:36: one final question for both of you.

00:21:39: I'm wondering based on everything You've said What trends do you think We should be watching over The next decade In African Gulf relations?

00:21:49: I think the trends going forward, at least from a South African perspective will be shaped by... From one point geopolitics.

00:22:01: You recall that South Africa did take Israel to international court of justice and essentially ICC as well International Criminal Court over the violence that witnessed in Palestine after the October, twenty-twenty three attacks and the commencement of almost the annihilation of the Palestinians.

00:22:28: In the name of trying to counter Hamas And I think these are also linkages with Hezbollah in Lebanon as well as the Houthis in Yemen As targeted by Israel i think South Africa took the position Of aligning itself the Palestinians.

00:22:49: And this is historical because they are ruling party here, The African National Congress has traditionally had a very close ties with the PLO and it's considered Israeli involvement there as apartheid like happened here.

00:23:05: This in real terms actually written on policy documents.

00:23:09: that then suggests one hand South Africa has forced close ties.

00:23:18: view things in the same way.

00:23:21: I don't think this conflict is going to go away very quickly and so, these are something that will frame relations for quite some time to come.

00:23:32: but then on the other hand interesting development is South Africa has also aligned itself more with Iran again for geopolitical reasons.

00:23:43: doubt to eat the fact that South Africa-U.S relations have been on a back foot, in fact they are very fractious you know?

00:23:54: The friction between the U.S and South Africa spills over into the Middle East.

00:24:00: In that sense considering what we're seeing currently.

00:24:03: You know then war between Israel US And Iran I think because there was still life We cannot tell for sure What will happen But this is something that's gonna shape the relations quite a bit.

00:24:17: My third point will be around, The more broader global South perspective.

00:24:22: and here it where agency comes in from a South African perspective.

00:24:26: but you know again?

00:24:28: The idea is that the Global South Is increasingly becoming important so-called global majority.

00:24:36: And then these are some one of the reasons That One of the factors that connects sub-Saharan Africa, and the Gulf.

00:24:45: And that they need to forge closer ties as global South partners to try to lift their people who are generally poorer than the Global North counterparts—to enjoy higher levels of living.

00:25:01: in broad terms.

00:25:03: I think The other factor is now we see quite a bit conflict and violence within the Gulf region And at the same time we are seeing countries in Africa such as Angola, such as Mozambique discovering hydrocarbons oil.

00:25:20: We're seeing lots of discoveries of critical minerals and rare earths.

00:25:24: I think these are going to be very important points of economic consideration because natural resources that Gulf states are looking for as they try to diversify away from hydrocarbons alone.

00:25:38: I think countries such as UAE, Saudi Arabia and Qatar are looking based on batteries, EVs, electric vehicle batteries and so forth or renewable energies more broadly.

00:25:53: And as we've seen this has been tied quite a bit to peace-and-conflict resolution.

00:25:58: the case is with DRC.

00:26:00: So I'll say there are many factors but economic or geoeconomic factors will increasingly be delivered.

00:26:13: either parties will be using to try and shape the more geopolitical, geostrategic engagement.

00:26:20: So in a nutshell I would say economics is going to be a key driver leading or with a spillover into other domains like political and diplomatic end of things.

00:26:34: thank you

00:26:36: Thank You very much Dr Bob Amare.

00:26:39: what would you add?

00:26:42: Professor for enlightening us and thank you Hibbet.

00:26:45: I can probably add a few things what have been said by professor, but first one is this thing that people call it.

00:26:54: there's kind of an asymmetric relation between Gulf and Sub-Saharan African relations.

00:26:59: You know compared to the what we've been speaking about per example Africa-West relation That was really a sharp asymmetric relationship.

00:27:07: But when it comes to the Gulf Sub-Saharan African relation, in terms of economic development or probably the petro dollars that they have.

00:27:16: It might be considered somehow a kind of what an astimid requires.

00:27:20: but the relation is based on interests because Africa isn't as simple outlier than this type of relation.

00:27:29: so most african states are open for investments specifically these days including my country, Ethiopia.

00:27:37: And then taking initiative to have a relation was the Gulf States right?

00:27:41: So and then first off from data plan perspective we actually work with almost all Gulf states Including Iran as well.

00:27:49: Right We have a good relationship with Iran.

00:27:51: We still have an economic relations with Iran A diplomatic relations With Iran Uh...We Still Have An Economic Investment Relations With Israel With KSA With The UAE Despite Whatever type of what rivalry they have in Africa, we still work with almost all Gulf states and then we don't follow any kind of partisan relation with respect to the Gulf.

00:28:18: And our foreign policy towards the Gulf state for a long-term period might be in a kind of dark.

00:28:25: but these days I think following the coming out Dr Abidu's power there is shift to actually look into a very balanced manner between all, almost all members of the Gulf state.

00:28:39: So I don't see any kind of what big asymmetric relation and that's why i say it relates second of both an interest-based relationship And then the other one I will have to include is also uh The South-South cooperation so the relation between gulf and african partnership with tribe in the form Of south-south cooperation as professor elie mentioned.

00:28:59: but there has To be some kind of question that need to be flagged because there is a fear that sub-Saharan Africa could be the next epoxy or actual background due too at the strong library of Gulf powers, to save footholds in the horn.

00:29:15: And then we have seen a few examples for example in Sudan For example in Somalia In Yemen and many of the Dresga region including the Gulf states.

00:29:24: Therefore We Have To Be Causes.

00:29:25: At The Same Time We Need To Have A Close Tie

00:29:28: to

00:29:29: resolve these kinds of differences or problems, and a trust that can be accommodated for everyone.

00:29:37: And then lastly BRICS is also another initiative which has been seen in terms as House-of-Corporation members from my own perspective but at the same time from the Ethiopian perspective specifically A few Gulf States and Ethiopia are also members of the BRICs.

00:29:53: Therefore this can be considered one agencies that actually push to have a very strong and at the same time Balanced relation between Gulf in Africa.

00:30:05: So, In my conclusion I would say The gulf-african partnership will thrive in the future either in the form of the South cooperation as we have said in multilateral aspect in Briggs or in the Form of bilateral relations Or in some kind of a trilateral relationship.

00:30:24: But as I have said earlier, there must be some kind of a thing that needs to be plugged.

00:30:29: This is the only reflection that i have with the closing question.

00:30:32: thank you!

00:30:33: Thank you very much to both of you Dr Amare and Dr Bob.

00:30:37: those were some really fascinating insights and thoughts And thank you for being our guests on this episode of The Waza Podcast.

00:30:46: To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed the episode and do encourage to check out more of the work of both Dr.

00:30:54: Bobb & Dr.

00:30:55: Amare.

00:30:56: They're doing some great things.

00:30:58: Thank You very much for joining us on this episode of The WhatsApp Podcast.

00:31:03: We look forward bringing you more discussions Insights and expert interviews as we continue to explore the complexities of West Asia-South Zara and Africa partnerships in Flux.

00:31:16: And finally you can find more information on the WhatsApp project, and please do follow Carpo on LinkedIn & Instagram to stay up-to-date.