Introducing The WASSAP Project

00:00:17: Hello, dear listeners and welcome to the first episode of What's Up?

00:00:21: The Africa-West Asia podcast.

00:00:23: That stands for West Asia & Sub-Sahara African Partnerships in Flux – What's up!

00:00:29: The show in which we explore fast evolving partnerships between West Asia and Sub-saharan Africa.

00:00:36: My name is Desiree Custors.

00:00:37: I am a project manager with Carpo and one your hosts.

00:00:41: I have been working on the Waza project for the past two years and am very excited to kick off this series with you.

00:00:49: And i'm Yubair Kinko, Senior Researcher at Carpo & Member of The Waza Project Team.

00:00:56: Together we will be guiding conversations on political economic cultural as well religious dynamics that shape relations between West Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa how ties between these two regions and actors within them are changing.

00:01:37: In the project, we have a particular focus on several case study countries through which we illustrate more general trends in Gulf-Africa relations.

00:01:47: On the West Asia side We focused on Saudi Arabia The United Arab Emirates The UAE Qatar and Iran And on the African side We focus on South Africa Nigeria Kenya and Ethiopia.

00:02:02: Throughout this series will bring researchers practitioners and experts to unpack the latest developments, debates and insights.

00:02:13: These include economic ties but also how Gulf Africa ties play out in conflict resolution on the African continent as well as the role of sports diplomacy.

00:02:25: today we will start with an introduction off The Wasa project itself why it is so important what.

00:02:36: And then we'll zoom in on our latest study that examines the intersecting agencies

00:02:54: reflect on latest developments, and break down challenges and opportunities emerging in relations between both regions.

00:03:02: It is also part of our effort to make our work more accessible not only to scholars and policymakers but also you dear listener and anyone who's curious about the topic.

00:03:15: so welcome again.

00:03:17: To

00:03:21: kick things off, we would like to welcome Yan Hanrath, CEO of Carpo.

00:03:26: To tell us about the Center for Applied Research in partnership with The Orient such a mouthful but in short, Carpo.

00:03:35: that houses the WASA project.

00:03:38: Yan please introduce Carpo telling us why it is natural place to host such projects on Gulf Africa relations.

00:03:48: Thank you, Hubert.

00:03:49: Very pleased to be part of this very first episode of the podcast.

00:03:53: Well, Carpo as you said that is the Center for Applied Research in partnership with The Orient.

00:03:58: We are an independent research institute based in Bonn Germany.

00:04:02: Since our founding we have focused on applied policy-oriented research and dialogue formats That connect Europe With the Middle East.

00:04:09: What defines Carpo?

00:04:11: Is Our Partnership Approach?

00:04:12: We work closely with institutions And experts In the regions we study combining academic depth and practical policy engagement.

00:04:21: Over the past decade, our core work has centered on the Middle East and the Gulf region in particular – Saudi Arabia, UAE, Qatar, Iran.

00:04:29: looking at economic transformation regional diplomacy and societal change.

00:04:34: but many of our projects we began noticing something important actors in the gulf were increasingly looking beyond their immediate neighborhood particularly toward Africa.

00:04:44: At the same time, African actors were engaging Gulf states in highly strategic ways economically politically and even in security cooperation.

00:04:52: We realized that these interactions where no longer side stories they were becoming structural features of a shifting multi-polar global order.

00:05:01: yet research and policymaking often continued to treat both regions separately.

00:05:06: That observation was starting point for WhatsApp.

00:05:09: Carpo was a natural home for this project because we already had the regional networks, with thematic expertise and dialogue formats to bring actors from both sides into one shared analytical space.

00:05:20: WhatsApp allows us to connect the dots and better understand how Gulf-Africa relations are reshaping wider geopolitical dynamics.

00:05:28: Well

00:05:30: thank you Ian for setting the scene and outlining some of Carpo's broader mission and work, how Carpo's approach gave life to our WASAP project.

00:05:41: So without further ado I would like us now jump into the WASAP Project itself!

00:05:48: To help us explore what WASAP came about in What Drives a Project.

00:05:54: we are joined by our third team member Dr Sebastian Zones.

00:05:59: Sebastian welcome.

00:06:01: Thank you so much for having me.

00:06:04: It's a really great pleasure, and I'm looking very much forward to this journey together with you.

00:06:09: My name is Sebastian Sohnz.

00:06:11: I am senior researcher at Carpo and of course part of the great WhatsApp team.

00:06:16: I mainly focus on security policies, geo-economic and geopolitical engagement in Gulf states such as Saudi Arabia, UAE and Qatar in specific parts of the world, not only in Africa.

00:06:30: I'm also very much interested in social economic transformation that those states are undergoing and off course all to the social transition they're seeing themselves in.

00:06:39: And lately as a big football fan i am focusing on sport diplomacy In The Gulf.

00:06:46: As you already mentioned this will become topic for our podcast later episodes so stay tuned.

00:06:53: Thank You again for having me.

00:06:55: Thank you, Sebastian for that wonderful introduction.

00:06:58: I would say maybe let's start at the beginning and maybe discuss why we as a team are interested in relations between West Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa.

00:07:09: to Start with myself i've spent the better part of my childhood In several African countries and I've noticed from an early age that there is a relationship with the Gulf, for example Arabic language but also cultural similarities etc.

00:07:28: And this thing that i notice became more prominent when later in life I started studying Arabic and busied myself with developments in the Middle East.

00:07:39: Nevertheless... Especially from a European perspective, the two regions are considered as distinct.

00:07:48: There is Africa – The African continent and there's Middle East and Gulf as part of that.

00:07:54: This why I think a project like Wazap is important because it emphasizes different perspectives on relations between the Gulf & Africa.

00:08:05: How have you come to see these relations since working with them?

00:08:11: Thank you, Desiree.

00:08:12: And of course for me it's also a very interesting topic due to the fact that Sometimes, as you already mentioned both regions seem to act in silos and are not very well connected with each other.

00:08:25: At least this is the outside perspective but definitely This Is Not True As there Are Very Strong Historical Cultural Links There Are Migration Flows And Definitely For instance for a country such as Saudi Arabia The western side of the Red Sea It's Its Direct Neighborhood And it is Extremely Important For Security Economic And Political Reasons.

00:08:45: So in our was-up project, it is for me extremely interesting not only to learn more about how those regions see each other and how they are engaging with each other but also how stakeholders researchers politicians NGO representatives.

00:08:59: And others Are communicating with each Other?

00:09:02: I think one of the greatest experience In this Project Was To See That Colleagues From Saudi from The UAE From South Africa From Nigeria Ethiopia are getting in touch with each other and know each other better.

00:09:16: And I think of dialogue is definitely also a strategic goal which we all have on our projects, that's extremely relevant for me personally very interesting adventure.

00:09:29: Thank you very much, Sebastian.

00:09:30: We look over the last couple years as part of this project.

00:09:34: we've organized or been invited to multiple workshops conferences high-level events, we've also held working group meetings across both regions in some of the specific countries that you have mentioned.

00:09:50: Please could you tell our listeners a bit more about these activities?

00:09:54: Yeah once We have done a lot of very fascinating work and this work is related mainly to two dimensions.

00:10:03: Firstly, it really plays the role as bridge builder in connecting people from both regions with each other by providing platforms or organizing workshops as you already mentioned.

00:10:13: so we've been to Nairobi, Ethiopia, Joberg in South Africa.

00:10:18: We are traveling frequently through Gulf region for learning more about their perspectives on Africa and vice versa By establishing working groups and of course also by bringing excellent intellectual talents, we really want to highlight what those regions have in common.

00:10:38: What are their shared interests?

00:10:40: Not only focusing on risks or challenges but opportunities for collaboration And this plays out in the African Gulf Corridor, but of course also it is extremely relevant for us here in Europe.

00:10:51: For Germany and other European countries.

00:10:54: so therefore in our activities and our research we always want to bring in these three-fold dimensions.

00:11:00: So look into the regions But also understand what are implications for Europe?

00:11:05: In this regard We do not only organize events.

00:11:08: We bring people together and we have established very strong partnerships, for instance with Witt's University in Johannesburg or with the University of Nairobi in Kenya.

00:11:18: But also conducting research has published a couple studies that I will talk about later on.

00:11:25: But we also give young talents, students and others the chance to present their research results.

00:11:31: And also create more ownership when it comes to their voices – to listen more to voices from Africa, from the Gulf region….

00:11:38: …and really integrate them into a broader global community of research and discussion.

00:11:44: This is particularly for me personally very fascinating goal.

00:11:49: this project has... ...and I'm grateful that you're part of it!

00:11:53: Thank-you so much Sebastian, you did mention visits to the Gulf and some African countries.

00:12:00: But I also know that there were important meetings on activities held in Europe whether it's Brussels or Berlin.

00:12:07: would like say a bit about these as well?

00:12:10: Yeah, thank you for reminding me of those two great events we had last year.

00:12:15: So we organized one expert roundtable in Berlin which is my hometown.

00:12:19: so it was great to welcome you and a couple colleagues from the African continent and the Gulf here in Berlin And at that time We were quite lucky with the weather.

00:12:28: sometimes It's extremely annoying To be in Berlin with regards to the weather but this was great and beautiful.

00:12:34: So we gathered a group of policymakers from different ministries, political foundations and other institutions to discuss with them the results in our most recent study.

00:12:46: And also to shed more light on why this Gulf-African relationship is important for countries such as Germany.

00:12:53: I mean, Germany is very much engaged on the African continent.

00:12:56: It's also reaching out to the Gulf States for economic and security reasons.

00:13:01: so therefore it has high importance of policymakers here in Germany to learn more about different dynamics between both regions.

00:13:09: And we did something similar at Brussels a couple days later And we met with colleagues from the European Union, from The Commission and different divisions within the EU.

00:13:19: We also discussed how such a project could contribute to more effective policymaking in those regions.

00:13:29: So I think here this trilateral dimension of bringing together African and Gulf players is an unique selling point for the project.

00:13:39: that brings added value into the whole debate.

00:13:42: Thank you, Sebastian.

00:13:43: And thank you very much for speaking to us a little bit about the project activities up until now and You mentioned our collaboration with University of Nairobi Especially students.

00:13:55: they're writing some papers on how they see Gulf relations With Sub-Saharan Africa?

00:14:01: These will be published soon in a carpo publication.

00:14:04: So dear listeners look out for that!

00:14:08: In Nairobi That's where Uber were based at the time.

00:14:11: So I would just like to briefly bring you in and ask how you have become interested in relations between West Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa?

00:14:22: Sure, Desiree thankyou very much.

00:14:24: a lot of knowledge production that links the rest of the world with Africa has often sidelined Africa as put Africa on the margins sometimes referring to states and enterprises, and societies as being acted upon instead of us agents themselves capable of acting and shaping outcomes.

00:14:48: And this has been a central theme in all the work that I've done over the last ten years.

00:14:53: i have tried As much possible to center Africa within some of these dynamics but africa is A continent with actors who are agency.

00:15:06: This project is really important for me because it allows us to be able show the various levels of agency, where it's exercised.

00:15:16: The kinds of agents across multiple levels within these dynamics.

00:15:21: and so this part about a project that very much excites me.

00:15:26: That's great.

00:15:26: thank you Iber!

00:15:30: about agency, because this has become really one of the central concepts in The Wasapp Project.

00:15:36: And... One our major written outputs have been a study that we authored together Uber, Sebastian and myself which was published on November last year with the title Agency In Flux Networkability Manoeuvrability & Leverage Ability Between West Asia & Sub-Sahara Africa.

00:16:00: And in this study, we focus on how actors in both regions exercise different forms of agency within their evolving partnerships.

00:16:10: The study is quite innovative in terms of providing a kind new lens for making sense the strategic nature of Gulf Africa relations namely the NML Nexus.

00:16:24: To be very brief, I know it seems that within this project we really like acronyms but just to briefly explain it to the listeners NML stands for Network Ability Maneuverability and Leverage Ability.

00:16:39: Network ability referring to The capacity of actors both state & non-state to form sustain and utilize networks For particular goals whether they be foreign policy goals economic or security, or even cultural goals.

00:16:59: Maneuverability here refers to the ability of state and non-state actors to strategically position themselves within international relations to influence outcomes and pursue goals through diplomatic maneuvering, economic strategies hedging.

00:17:21: And the last letter, which is L standing for leverageability refers to the ability of state and non-state actors.

00:17:42: So having laid out a little bit of the conceptual background of this Nexus or this lens, I would like to invite you Sebastian.

00:17:51: To maybe explain to listeners how we use this framework in the context of Gulf Africa relations.

00:18:00: Thank You Desiree and honestly i don't have too much to add because you excellently outlined what the NML Nexus is.

00:18:07: Maybe just A couple of thoughts on this.

00:18:09: From our point-of-view, it's always kind of a challenge to really digest what is happening in terms of complex relations between both regions because it is extremely multi layered.

00:18:20: It has going on so many different levels politically and socially economically, security related and therefore it has become extremely complicated to make sense what is going on.

00:18:31: So the NML Nexus is a lens we look through in order to deconstruct which levels particular relationships between particular actors from both regions are taking place.

00:18:43: so sometimes there's a tendency to consider Africa as a country A number of countries and to consider the different perspectives societal views political standpoint as a monolithic block.

00:19:00: And this is very similar also for the Gulf States or for West Asian countries.

00:19:05: so when we look into Saudi Arabia there's the tendency that interests are very much similar to Oman, for instance or UAE acting in a similar way as Qatar.

00:19:15: And this is not the case, at least not always.

00:19:17: So there are differences... There are divergences that our competition and rivalry playing out of course needs to be taken into consideration.

00:19:25: I think what we did with the NML Nexus was exactly find a concept which makes life easier for us To look in specific fields of action where different forms of cooperation or co-optation take place.

00:19:45: And still, it sounds a little bit theoretical.

00:19:47: But I think in our study we outlined the number of very concrete examples to highlight where the NML Nexus plays out and what does that mean also for us as analysts but also for policymakers?

00:20:00: To make more sense off this very complex multidimensional network between the Gulf and the Sub-Saharan African region.

00:20:09: Thank you Sebastian.

00:20:11: Broly speaking how do Gulf states engage with the African continent as a whole, also particularly in respect to some specific countries and what strategies drive their actions?

00:20:25: Yeah it's of course very difficult question because there is no size fits all approach.

00:20:29: So I already said that Gulf States don't act like monolithic blocs so they are following different strategies, approaches and networks.

00:20:37: And I think that's extremely interesting when we are using the NML nexus.

00:20:41: so for instance take flexible communication lines as an example.

00:20:46: it is very important to highlight that Gulf-African relations not only based on official or institutionalized network they're often times also very personalized Very individual.

00:20:58: So if there are particular people who have good networks To other people in the other side of Red Sea then they can definitely play out more leverage, and have more agency.

00:21:08: It goes faster than for instance institutionalized networks.

00:21:13: in this regard personalities matter And those personalities are not only politicians.

00:21:19: They're sometimes close advisors to the leaders on the Gulf For instance.

00:21:24: Sometimes there's business people or both.

00:21:27: This is a very interesting hybrid model of personalized interconnectivity.

00:21:33: So those deproprinters, the guys who are working in business as well as a diplomacy definitely also driving African Gulf relations.

00:21:41: and one prominent example which we also highlight on our study is Sheikh Shahboot bin Nachyan Al-Nachyan member of the UAE's ruling family and a businessman.

00:21:51: he was appointed in twenty twenty one as the first minister for state or african affairs And here it has of course cultivated abroad network across the continent.

00:22:00: So this is not a strategy, but these personal relations are definitely one instrument how Gulf African relations play out and there's number of other examples.

00:22:10: But when it comes to different strategies also let me mention maybe three examples by focusing on the main gulf actors On the african continent which is Saudi Arabia the UAE and Qatar.

00:22:24: Starting with Saudi Arabia, its engagement is shaped by the Red Sea as it's strategic hinterland.

00:22:30: So I said before for Saudi Arabia The Horn of Africa on the other side of the red sea is direct neighborhood.

00:22:37: It's not far away.

00:22:38: so therefore Riyadh has to recalibrate its engagement, it has to engage on a diplomatic or an economic level.

00:22:48: It cannot just impose something in the region because so closely intertwined with that and the Horn of Africa security is at the same time Saudi Arabia's security.

00:22:58: So therefore investing into diplomacy and diplomatic de-escalation but also invests into mining agriculture sectors vital for food security and economic diversification.

00:23:12: The UAE is maybe the most prominent example when it comes to the Gulf engagement in Africa, and particularly at the Horn of Africa.

00:23:20: It's also a very controversial role that the UAE has played in a couple of contexts.

00:23:25: What I think describes its strategy best?

00:23:30: Is investment security nexus?

00:23:33: so we see UAE companies such as DP World or AD ports who are constructing a string of ports across East and Southern Africa by integrating these corridors into a wider connectivity network that links the Indian Ocean to the Mediterranean.

00:23:50: And therefore some observers are framing the UAE as a new Venice because it has established this string of ports from its Jabal Ali port throughout the whole region.

00:24:01: Here, of course, the Red Sea and the rest of the African continent plays an important role in terms of interconnectivity.

00:24:09: Therefore, the UAEs invest into ports concession they build maritime infrastructure so that they also want to gain more influence and leverage on players in Africa for geo-economic and security reasons.

00:24:22: And Qatar, finally is also pursuing an interesting strategy with regards to Africa which was quite recent I would say whereas the UAE is much more active in Africa but I will argue two decades now.

00:24:35: Qatar started just maybe ten years ago.

00:24:38: really invest diplomatically into African continent as Qatar has promoted itself as an honest broker, a mediator and bridge builder when it comes to regional conflicts.

00:24:49: It also do the same in African conflict for instance its mediation between one and the Democratic Republic of Congo stands out here And invest heavily in physical infrastructure such as airports telecommunications but also renewable projects.

00:25:04: So what I wanted say is there's no strategy that is played out by all the Gulf states, they are using different strategies in different ways.

00:25:14: And sometimes those ways on the same track and sometimes of course there are diverging interests at

00:25:20: place.".

00:25:22: Thank you Sebastien!

00:25:23: I appreciate your outlining some differences between the Gulf strategies because as mentioned we have a tendency to look like Africa as one country but also looking one country, so I think it's important that you outline some of the different strategies and this term that you mentioned, The Diploponeurs.

00:25:48: This is a very interesting phenomenon that i'm sure we will look more into maybe in some of future episodes.

00:25:55: but as you described the strategies for the Gulf One thing came to mind also as Uber mentioned Is the asymmetries existing between the gulf and Africa.

00:26:09: So many would say, okay in your study you look at for example agency by African countries but what does that mean?

00:26:17: In light of such powerful Gulf actors how would you respond to this question or to such

00:26:25: criticism?".

00:26:26: Yeah I think the question of asymmetric relations is key to our research And in general terms, I would argue that none of those players consider themselves as pure and passive recipients... ...of Gulf engagement.

00:26:48: So there is a growing self-confidence among the African continent Of course also in the Gulf region.

00:26:54: they consider themselves emerging middle powers In so called global south.

00:27:00: They really want to play an international role.

00:27:03: Therefore, this holds also true for African states as they today engage with multiple partners at the same time.

00:27:10: This requires self-confidence and pragmatism but also a strategic clarity not only to partner such as Europe or the

00:27:19: U.S.,

00:27:19: China... ...but of course also to the Gulf States.

00:27:24: I think one element that is sometimes overlooked – yes there are asymmetric Levels of engagement and I will come to that in a second, but there are also entry points for African countries.

00:27:37: To preserve their own interests an to really have agency and leverage on the golf partners because the gulf cannot act alone.

00:27:46: they're really need partnerships they need networks they serve as platforms And you need always to tangle, right?

00:27:51: So in this regard Africa has become or the African continent has become much more prominent when it comes to the strategic interlinkage and interconnectivity with the Gulf region.

00:28:02: However there are still asymmetric power play at place and This is definitely The case when we look into some investments of the gulf states In african countries.

00:28:16: so those transactional investments can sideline African agency and can further undermine governance, resilience and long-term development.

00:28:26: And in this context Gulf problems frequently become also African problems especially in fragile regions.

00:28:34: Nowhere is it clearer than the Horn of Africa where rivalries among the UAE Saudi Arabia have spilled over into local politics as we see for instance in Sudan where the UAE and Saudi Arabia are supporting opposing players in this brutal, devastating civil war.

00:28:51: We also see that the current relationship between the UAEs and Saudi Arabias has become extremely difficult... ...and have resulted an open rivalry.

00:28:59: This spills over to the Horn of Africa….

00:29:02: …and undermines social resilience and regional stability there as we can see for instance in Somalia or Somaliland.

00:29:09: And at a moment when the UAES-Saudi-Riveries is at its peak reminds me sometimes on the situation we had between twenty seventeen and twenty-twenty one when there was this so called Gulf crisis in which Qatar was boycotted and blockaded by its neighboring countries such as UAE, Saudi Arabia.

00:29:29: And that this also played out on the African continent where African governments were pushed from their gulf partners to take sides Which contributed to political fragmentation in Somalia Sudan Ethiopia or Djibouti To only mention a couple of examples.

00:29:44: And there is also a second concern that relates to the Gulf's economy-first approach.

00:29:50: We heard it a lot from our partners on the African continent, That they on one hand appreciate that there are investments coming form the gulfs of the Continent But On The Other Hand They Consider Them As A New Colonial Dynamic imposed by the Gulf on African countries, so that this is not in their advantage.

00:30:07: That it's more for the self-interest of the Gulf and includes large scale land acquisitions that have been criticized for displacing communities degrading environments and compromising land rights.

00:30:20: So this land grabbing is definitely a great concern.

00:30:24: And similar concerns exist with regards to the situation of African labor migrants working at the Gulf who are still suffering from structural violence, high migration costs and social uncertainties.

00:30:37: Although we have seen some reforms with regards to labor rights in the Gulf but still this structural abusive situation constitutes also a very critical perspective inside Africa or inside African societies on the Gulf.

00:30:52: And I think we definitely have to take the pros and cons into consideration, not everything what the Gulf is doing in Africa as bad but not always good at least when it comes to African agency ownership.

00:31:03: In our project really want highlight different nuances of this complex relationship.

00:31:09: Thank you, Sebastian.

00:31:10: I think Uber and myself couldn't have wished for a better first guest for our inaugural episode For this podcast.

00:31:19: You've mentioned many topics that we will continue to explore in the podcast series Among them migration but also economic & security ties And i think you'll be back later on this series To talk about sports diplomacy.

00:31:36: Yay!

00:31:36: And I'm very much looking forward to it.

00:31:39: So are we?

00:31:40: Yes, Sebastian We're very much look forward to welcoming you back.

00:31:44: Thank You so much for having me.

00:31:46: Thanks also to Jan CEO of Carpo For joining us and explaining about Carpo.

00:31:52: thankyou The pleasure was all mine.

00:31:54: It's great to be on this episode.

00:31:56: Dear listener If we have sparked your interest in curiosity Please visit the Carpo website To learn more about the WazApp project but also to find the study on agency that we have spoken about.

00:32:25: So

00:32:31: dear listeners, stay tuned and follow Carpo on LinkedIn & Instagram to keep up with our events publications and WhatsApp updates.

00:32:41: See you in the next episode!